Before he became a trial lawyer, Colorado lawyer Kurt Zaner wanted to be an actor. But rather than just play a role, Kurt decided that he wanted to be a real-world champion and decided to become a trial lawyer. Now, Kurt applies lessons about presence, storytelling and drama from the stage to help achieve landmark verdicts for his clients. Join Ben for his wide-ranging discussion with Kurt that covers how a trial lawyer can use acting skills to enhance courtroom impact; strategies that have enabled Kurt to achieve several eight-figure verdicts against considerable odds; and even what modern day lawyers can learn from reading Cicero.
Before he became a trial lawyer, Colorado lawyer Kurt Zaner wanted to be an actor. But rather than just play a role, Kurt decided that he wanted to be a real-world champion and decided to become a trial lawyer. Now, Kurt applies lessons about presence, storytelling and drama from the stage to help achieve landmark verdicts for his clients. Join Ben for his wide-ranging discussion with Kurt that covers how a trial lawyer can use acting skills to enhance courtroom impact; strategies that have enabled Kurt to achieve several eight-figure verdicts against considerable odds; and even what modern day lawyers can learn from reading Cicero.
About Kurt Zaner
Kurt Zaner has dedicated his legal career to representing folks against the modern-day Goliaths. In battling corporations that refuse to take responsibility, Kurt enjoys the challenge of standing up for people that seemingly have the odds overwhelmingly stacked against them.
A sought-after national speaker, Kurt frequently lectures on his winning trial techniques, effective legal writing strategies, and iconic discovery tactics that force top-value settlements. Kurt has secured the largest premises liability verdict in the history of Colorado ($16,000,000.00).
He has appeared on Good Morning America, World News Tonight, and every local media outlet including the Denver Post and local CBS, ABC, and Fox affiliates. He is a published author of Federal and State case law, including Colorado law establishing the right to punitive damages for victims of drunk drivers; he also authored legal articles on distracted driving as well as articles on ancient Roman trial methods.
As a trained stage actor, Kurt credits much of his trial success to his theatrical training in college and in Los Angeles prior to law school.
After graduating law school near the top of his class and receiving the American Bar Association’s and American Law Institute’s Best Graduate Award – awarded to the one student of the graduating class who best represents a combination of scholarship and leadership – Kurt went on to clerk for United States District Judge Ken Marra.
Working side by side with a Federal Judge on one of the largest caseloads in the country, Kurt learned the art of persuasive advocacy both through legal writing and courtroom theatrics.
Most importantly, he learned how cases are won from behind the bench.
Prior to co-founding Zaner Harden Law, LLP, Kurt practiced with some of the best-known trial lawyers in the country. Kurt has successfully represented hundreds of clients across the State of Colorado, trying and winning cases at every level of Colorado State Court, including several million and multi-million-dollar verdicts and settlements.
In 2017 he and his partner were recognized as having two of the largest verdicts of the year across all practice areas, including a 1,700,000.00 verdict against an oil company’s distracted driver as well as a $2,500,000 verdict against a drunk driver that killed his client’s son and then fled the scene.
This drunk driving verdict landed on the front page of the Denver Post as the community was fed up with these kinds of reckless drivers avoiding accountability by running away.
Kurt defended this verdict all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court. In 2018, Kurt secured the largest premises liability verdict in the history of Colorado – $16,000,000.00 in Boulder for a father of three who was diagnosed with the crippling neurological condition CRPS after a temporary electrical box exploded.
A few years later, Kurt secured a verdict on another electrocution case where his client also developed CRPS, with a Denver jury delivering a $10,600,000.00 verdict (with interest). A year after that, Kurt secured a $4,300,000.00 verdict for a client hurt in a trucking crash.
No matter how big or small the case, Kurt takes great pride in helping those that entrust their most significant legal problems to his law firm.
Kurt is very active in the Trial Lawyer community, both locally and nationally. Locally, he was recently elected to the Board of the Colorado Trial Lawyers Association (CTLA) for his fifth consecutive year and serves on several committees.
Nationally, after serving as President of the New Lawyers Division for the American Association of Justice (the 5,000 member NLD division of the most pre-eminent national trial lawyer organization in the Country), Kurt now serves on the Budget Committee of the entire 20,000-member organization as well as the Board of Governors.
He also acts as a certified End Distracted Driving (EndDD Program) presenter, donating his time in high school classrooms in Colorado educating the next generation of drivers on the dangers of distracted driving.
Kurt is invited to speak across the country on novel legal strategies and methods that he has developed – techniques that have resulted in unprecedented successful results for his clients.
He has been a regular speaker for the American Association of Justice, having spoken in Boston, Palm Springs, Denver, Los Angeles, and Montreal on a variety of topics including trial techniques, writing strategies, and insurance bad faith. He also speaks regularly for Trial Lawyers University (formerly Trojan Horse) as well as The National Trial Lawyers’ national trial seminars.
On the State level, Mr. Zaner regularly teaches for the Colorado Trial Lawyers at their state convention, statewide CLEs, and for CTLA’s new lawyer bootcamps,
He has also spoken at several State Seminars around the Country, including the prestigious Arkansas Trial Lawyers College on one of his favorite topics: transplanting 2,000-year-old trial techniques from the Roman trial lawyer Cicero and demonstrating how they can be effective in today’s trials.
When not practicing law, Mr. Zaner spends much of his time with his wife and two young boys, outdoors in the mountains or on the stage in a local theater production.
Licensed in Florida and Colorado.
Publications
Warembourg v. Excel, 471 P.3d 1213 (Co. Ct. App. 2020) – 63-page, 3-0 published opinion that affirmed the firm’s record-breaking 16-million-dollar electrocution verdict. This opinion creates significant new law in the area of spoliation of evidence, setting new standards for when parties must hold onto evidence and how they may be punished if they do not preserve such evidence (blessing an irrebuttable presumption of liability and causation punitive sanction). Case settled for 15.7 million shortly after this opinion.
“Lessons From Cicero” – Good Counsel, April 2017
Alhilo v. Kleim, 413 P.3d 902 (Co. Ct. App. 2016), cert denied (Colo. June 26, 2017) – published opinion that affirmed the firm’s multi-million dollar motorcycle verdict and created helpful case law for victims of drunk drivers (allowing for prior DUIs to come in as evidence) and for those who have lost loved ones in a wrongful death case (clarifying the damage cap to afford survivors the maximum benefit).
Spotlight, “Overcoming Liability Roadblocks in Bicycle Accident Case” American Association for Justice, Trial Edition (July 2015)
“Sad But Preventable – a Trial Lawyer’s Quest to End Distracted Driving and Save Lives” The Colorado Trial Lawyers’ Association publication Trial Talk, Volume 62, Issue 3, April/May 2013 publication at p. 26 (sole author).
“Driving While on the Cell Phone; Punitive Damage Awards Should Come Through Loud and Clear” ABA’s The Brief, Tort Trial & Ins. Prac. Sec., Summer 2007, Vol. 35, No.4 (co-author), republished in The Colorado Trial Lawyers’ Association publication Trial Talk, Volume 62, Issue 3, April/May 2013 publication at p. 41.
“National Security Policy and Ratification of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty” 32 Houston Journal of International Law 1 (2009) (contributing author).
Vidinliev v. Carey, 581 F.Supp. 2d 1281 (N.D. Ga. 2008) – created federal case law in the area of worker’s FLSA rights.
Bar Leadership
NATIONAL
American Association of Justice – Board of Governor, 2018-2020; 2022-2025.
American Association of Justice – Executive Committee Member 2019-2020.
American Association of Justice – Budget Committee Member 2020-2023
American Association of Justice – Elected National President of NLD Division 2016.
American Association of Justice – Elected National Vice President of NLD Division 2016.
American Association of Justice – Elected National Treasurer of NLD Division 2015.
American Association of Justice – Elected National Secretary of NLD Division 2014.
American Association of Justice – Appointed Board of Governor on New Lawyers Division, June 2013.
American Association of Justice – Appointed Chair of the Publications Committee for the NLD quarterly national publication, the Sidebar, July 2013.
STATE
Colorado Trial Lawyers Association – Elected to serve as Board Member 2016-present
Colorado Trial Lawyers Association – Appointed to serve on Executive Committee and Legislative Committee 2016-17, 2021-2022
Colorado Trial Lawyers Association – Appointed to serve on Board as Board Member 2015-16.
Colorado Trial Lawyers Association – Appointed Membership Chair November 2012 -2015.
Colorado Trial Lawyers Association – Appointed New Lawyer Chair November 2013.
Community Involvement
Actor (Len), A One Night Stand at the Vintage Theater, Don’t Throw the Cheese by Mark Ogle.
Actor (Reverend Parris), The Crucible at Red Rocks Community Theater.
Presenter, End Distracted Driving Campaign; presents programs to high school students to warn them of the dangers of distracted driving.
Board of Director, Denver Athletic Club.
Narrator (4s):
This is the elevate podcast where trial lawyers learn, share, and grow. Let's talk about how we can Elawvate our trial practices, law firms, and lives. Now here are your hosts coming to you from coast to coast trial lawyers, Ben Gideon, and Rahul Ravipudi.
Ben Gideon (33s):
Today's episode of the Elawvate podcast is being brought to you by SmartAdvocate. SmartAdvocate is award winning case management software used to manage personal injury medical malpractice MDL class action law firms all over the United States great program, highly recommended. Check them out at SmartAdvocate.com. Today's episode is being brought to you by Expert Institute. Expert Institute is the place to go for everything involving experts to help you win your case. Check them out at expertinstitute.com Today's episode is being brought to you by Hype Legal. Hype legal is a one stop shop for all of your digital marketing needs.
Ben Gideon (1m 13s):
Check them out at hypelegal.com. So welcome to the Elawvate podcast. I'm Ben Gideon. I'm thrilled today to welcome Kurt Zaner from Colorado to the show. Welcome, Kurt.
Kurt Zaner (1m 26s):
Good morning Ben. Thank you for having me bright and early here. Mountain standard time gave me a good reason to get up and get my workout in early.
Ben Gideon (1m 34s):
I'm very impressed by that. I'm not a morning workout guy. I do like to work out every day, but I can't. I've never been able to manage the morning. When you're in trial, are you still getting up early every morning and and doing a workout before the trial day?
Kurt Zaner (1m 47s):
I am. I have to get that morning workout to kind get out like the jitters, the nervous energy. I have no problem getting up early. The harder problem during trial is sleeping.
Ben Gideon (1m 57s):
Mean sleeping at night or in the courtroom?
Kurt Zaner (2m 2s):
Usually I get seven to eight hours of sleep, not in trial. In trial it's like five to six and a half. So I just say my motor is always running. I'm up pretty early, usually like five o'clock for trial. It gives me time to get a little work done, do a little yoga, caffeinate, do more prep and then go in ready for battle.
Ben Gideon (2m 21s):
Do you ever have a problem with energy waning as the afternoon goes? Because I've found sometimes that can be an issue for me, particularly if I skip lunch and I'm just really, you know, not sleeping well. How do you manage that?
Kurt Zaner (2m 35s):
It's a huge impediment. So there's two things I do. I eat a really clean lunch, no carbs. Usually it's just some type of salad and protein. At this last trial we just had Tokyo Joe's, I dunno if you guys have that out in Maine. It's like a poke, chicken and rice thing. Had that brought in every day. That's defense number one. The other thing I did at this last trial, we got a hotel room right next to the courthouse, which is what we usually do. And I took my 15 minute power nap at lunch every day. Went into my room, I did my little like lay on the couch and just sleep and that just recharges the batteries. That's one of the few, maybe my only superpower is being able to fall asleep very quickly and that just totally rejuvenates me for the afternoon.
Ben Gideon (3m 18s):
That's actually an interesting strategy. I definitely would be able to fall asleep. My worry would be, what if I don't wake up again? But I'm sure you set your alarm and you're prepared for that. But that's great. I mean these little personal hygiene issues, although seemingly minor actually become very important I think when you're in the heat of battle.
Kurt Zaner (3m 40s):
Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more. I feel like the last, I've been a lawyer for like 20 years. I quit being a lawyer a couple times 'cause I didn't like it until I kind of fell into this personal injury trial lawyer mode. And in order to succeed, like got three little boys now that just take up a ton of my time, which I love. They're eight, six, and two. But in order to find the time to do all these things we have to do as a trial lawyer, I'm in that optimization mode of my life. Just trying to like cut things out, stay healthy, stay energized because the grind is real and of litigation and the challenges of trial are real. And if I don't have like everything, I feel like I need every advantage possible. And so I'm just trying to dial everything in. And those personal hygiene things are a huge point for me right now in this season of life.
Ben Gideon (4m 21s):
Yeah, I relate to that. I flew in last night from a depo, a trial depo in Philadelphia and it's just one of those things where I didn't get home till midnight and then my sleep pattern is thrown off and I've got a trial coming up. So I wanna make sure I'm not getting myself out of kind of rhythm. But it reminded me of the old days when we used to travel all the time for depositions. I'd be on the road two or three days a week. And the conversion over to Zoom has been such an enormous benefit for quality of life as a trial lawyer in my opinion. I saw on your bio that before you became a highly successful trial lawyer, you were an aspiring actor and actually went to school for that in California.
Ben Gideon (5m 5s):
Did you want to be an actor or was that just training or tell us about that.
Kurt Zaner (5m 10s):
Yeah, I mean I think what I really wanted and this I think is what ultimately led to me leaving acting is that I wanted to be a movie star. I didn't want to be a working actor. And the pitch that you get from everyone who is an actual actor is that you have to define success as an actor is just being able to make a living. Not having to hold down other jobs that is like the brass ring and then like those people that become stars. Well that's just for the lucky few. I didn't appreciate that until I was out there. And so yeah, I wanted to go out there and become a movie star. I had been, movies have always moved me. It motivated me, inspired me, wanted me a better person, do bigger things. The predictable movies you would think influenced me, like Braveheart, gladiator, these guys doing things that are just, you know, epic.
Kurt Zaner (5m 55s):
I went to LA after undergrad and doing acting in undergrad to be a movie star. And it's very, very hard to become a movie star in Los Angeles, as they say in Swingers. And they're not handing out sitcoms at the airport. So I went out there, I did that. And I came to this epiphany Ben that I didn't wanna be the actor that played these characters. I wanted to be those characters. I wanna be the person that was doing this monumental, heroic, brave, challenging thing. And so that's when I was like, all right, I've been here for a year. I don't think this working as an actor will be what I want. And I was like, I can go back and be a trial lawyer, which is always kind of plan B and be the guy in the movie, right? That's saving the day, that's helping the person that can't fight for themselves being their champion.
Kurt Zaner (6m 39s):
That was a light bulb moment when I came back. And I was like, I'm gonna go try and be not only the star of the movie but right as trial lawyers, as you know you're writing the script, you're directing the script. I mean the script was changing on the fly when the judges make rulings. So that was the LA journey that led me to trial lawyer.
Ben Gideon (6m 56s):
And what elements of that training translate to your work as a trial lawyer
Kurt Zaner (6m 60s):
Then? There's two elements. I think number one is just learning to be comfortable in front of other people. We can do all the training we want and how to do a cross closing, but unless you can deliver that when folks are there and be able to shake the nerves and step into your authentic self, then you're just reading a script or you're just trying to do something else. So being comfortable I think was a huge benefit of just doing acting, getting in front of people, memorizing lines. So there's that. And then the other part I think is being able to emote and being able to be fully present in your skin, which is two sides of the same coin of what I just spoke about. But like people ask me, they say, Kurt And I wasn't some great actor.
Kurt Zaner (7m 42s):
I didn't do lots of great things, I just gave it a shot. But they say, are you acting in the courtroom? No, I'm not pretending to care about my client. I'm, I'm caring about my client. I'm not pretending to be in, I'm not acting to be mad at the defense for these people lying under oath and changing their stories. I really am mad at them and, I really am frustrated and indignant. I think practicing acting allows you and allowed me to learn how to connect with my emotions and my ability to emote and express feelings in a very authentic way. If they think you're acting out there, I mean you know Ben, they're gonna lose. The juries can smell to charlatan a mile away. If you can transmit to the jury that you love your client, that you care about them, that's what wins cases.
Kurt Zaner (8m 26s):
If you can show them and you can be authentic in yourself and the way you prosecute the case and cross the defense witnesses and the way you close and you and you build this emotion in the courtroom in an authentic way, that's what persuades them. If the jury likes you and they like your client, they wanna find a way to rule your favor, I believe. So acting was instrumental in that.
Ben Gideon (8m 45s):
I can see how that would be really a helpful training in, in what you're saying, being comfortable in front of people and in your own skin. And when you think about acting, you think about somebody who's being inauthentic because they're taking on a role that's not them. But I haven't heard it explained the way you just did, which is how you, that actually allows you to just be authentic because the nerves and other barriers to just being yourself, putting yourself out there, you're able to overcome that. So for the rest of us that are not trained as actors, how do we get there? What do you recommend for the non stage trained lawyer to at least get to a better place where they can do a little bit better for their clients in that regard?
Kurt Zaner (9m 28s):
The other thing I do, like I forgot to mention about the acting training is it allows you to inject some drama into the courtroom. I had a federal trial recently. I was chained behind the podium, no approaching the jury for opening or closing. I took that rule very literally, And I just stood behind that podium. But then I walked back in the fourth, I'm behind defense counsel table doing my cross-examinations. I'm behind my client and just feeling comfortable enough to bring that drama by being a little theatrical, not too theatrical but theatrical in a way that that keeps the jury interested. Because I think jurors only exposure to trial laws watching TV shows. So like if we don't give them something that resembles that, I think they're gonna lose interest.
Kurt Zaner (10m 11s):
And if you lose interest then you lose your jury. Everything I learned as trial lawyer, I learned from Bobby Donnell on the practice in Allen Shore at Boston Legal.
Ben Gideon (10m 19s):
We're a different generation 'cause I'm more LA Law and Ally McBeal era.
Kurt Zaner (10m 24s):
Right Just before that. And I'm sure there's a bunch of people think who are like, what's the practice?
Ben Gideon (10m 28s):
Practice? Everyone's talking about suits now. That's what everyone watches
Kurt Zaner (10m 32s):
Suits is fun but it has nothing to do with trial law. I think so to answer your question, Ben, so watch those shows practice in Boston Legal, take some acting classes. I mean you can do this once a week or you have to memorize scripts and you get out and you have to create these emotions. I think that's a really easy thing to do. And if you don't have the time for that, 'cause I know we're all pressed for time. I mean just pick up an acting book and some scene work, some plays and work on a few scenes or a few monologues even get your partner, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, whatever it is to to do some things with you and read some lines. I think it's really, really helpful. And then try and create that scene blocking it out as they say because that's what we're doing in the courtroom.
Ben Gideon (11m 12s):
And how do you like to inject drama into the trial? Is that just your comporting yourself or is that also how you're theming the case and presenting the case? The facts?
Kurt Zaner (11m 22s):
I think it's more the former, when I think of drama in the courtroom, it's more presentation skills. I mean obviously you're incorporating your theme when you're doing all those things. But in opening, I really like to get out there And. I like to create space as much as the court will allow me, meaning you know, I'm in front of the jury and I'm recreating whatever the incident was that led to the case. And, I'm painting it out with my hands and my motions. And I'm living in that space. And I use council table as maybe that's the truck that hit my client. And I get in front of it. And I reenact things. And I think it's really critical when you do this, you don't look at the jury because now you're kind of breaking the fourth wall. You want to create this illusion, this moving picture if you will, where they're watching the incident.
Kurt Zaner (12m 4s):
Recreated And I think that can be really powerful. So I like to do that in opening in closings. I really like to incorporate my client a lot. I think people, they forget why we're there. And I mean that's really sad to say and but like becomes a case. But it's not a case as you know, it's this person's life that's been traumatized in some way. So I talk to them in closing decent part of my closing is me just interacting with them and ignoring everybody else. I do this bit where I relay bad news to them. And, I say and then Steve just kept getting bad news from his doctors. He'd hear things like we're sorry Steve, but the open book pelvic fracture has ruptured your pelvis in half and it's never gonna be the same again.
Kurt Zaner (12m 45s):
And we're sorry Steve, but this fracture never is really going to heal and it's gonna create problems down your leg where you also fractured your tibia and your fibula. And we're sorry Steve, but the nerve pain that has developed from that is gonna be debilitating. It's gonna make it impossible for you to do things with your daughter. Like simply walk on the beach with her because the pain will be so acute and we're sorry Steve, but you're gonna have to amputate your leg if you want any semblance of a normal life. So stuff like that. And when you do these things and you have that connection with your client, it allows emotion to kind of bubble up from them, from you. And it's just this moment between you and your client that is very authentic because you're not looking at the jury, you're not looking for their reactions.
Kurt Zaner (13m 29s):
You're just like delivering some really sad news in a way that the client has never heard before. And it can just be very, very powerful.
Ben Gideon (13m 35s):
And your client is there when you're doing that. So the jury is seeing their reaction to that. And do they know ahead of time that you'll be doing that in your closing? Yeah so that really can hit them pretty hard in an authentic way at that moment.
Kurt Zaner (13m 50s):
It's kinda like the briefcase close. I do that as well to them.
Ben Gideon (13m 53s):
I've been doing that.
Kurt Zaner (13m 54s):
Yeah and it's a lot of fun and everyone puts their own spin on it. you know, I read about it in trial by human at first.
Ben Gideon (13m 59s):
Yeah it really is pretty effective. I mean I want to joke about it or minimize it, but it's an effective way of presenting the damages claim.
Kurt Zaner (14m 8s):
I think I love it. And the last one, So I did that in this last trial. We had a really nice fracking explosion verdict. Fracking tank exploded. My guy was on top of it and he flew 30 feet away from the tank he was on, went up in the air probably about 50 feet, just a wonderful human being. This guy Steve Str I did the we're sorry thing we just talked about. And then in rebuttal, I've never done it this way Ben, I've never done it in rebuttal of the closing the briefcase. I always do it in closing, I didn't do it in closing this time 'cause I just ran out of time. I just had so much to talk about so I just cut my rebuttal really short, let's say four minutes for that briefcase close. And oh my gosh it was so much more effective to finish it like that.
Kurt Zaner (14m 50s):
It's like we created this emotion later. He's like, man you, it's like you punched me in the gut in that one and I'm starting to well up in tears, he's looking at me, he's starting to well up in tears and then I just, you know I put the briefcase down like and who takes that briefcase? I was like, nobody does. And then it's just silence. And I sit down, the defense lawyer can't get up and do his closing now and say well look at the facts and this and that. It's just this raw emotion. And me and Steve are looking at each other trying to control the tears 'cause that's the most powerful part, right? Not full out bawling, just trying to stop emotion. And the jury is just right next to us and just watching, it's just silence. And the court, the bailiff walks over and there's just left with that moment and it just lingers with them.
Kurt Zaner (15m 32s):
And that's what they go into the deliberation room with, not with point, counterpoint, logical part of the brain. They're going back in there with the emotion now, which is exactly what we want. So I think I'll always do it in rebuttal now, no longer in the actual close.
Ben Gideon (15m 45s):
I've never thought of doing it that way but that's pretty good. So since we're on that case, that was a recent verdict you got, it was like $30 million right In Colorado in a, in an explosion. Can you, do you want to tell us a little bit more about that case, the backstory?
Kurt Zaner (15m 59s):
Yeah, absolutely. Alright so it's a fracking site, A lot of fracking in Colorado. There's these frack tanks, so like the size of a mobile hub, think of that. And there's water ones, there's oil ones. Anyway, my guy's on top of one of the water tanks 'cause he's hearing some noises that just don't make sense to him. And so he gets on top of one tank. And these tanks are, like I said, about the size of a mobile home, maybe a little taller, he has his coworker go on top of the one next to him and they're hearing some noises and he tells his coworker to turn this valve off and he does. And then about three seconds later, boom, the tank that my guy's on explodes and it launches him, like I said, up in the air he lands far away open book pelvic fracture, all sorts of orthopedic injuries in his legs as he just heard his story.
Kurt Zaner (16m 44s):
He had to get an amputation about a year later. And this guy, as much as we want to credit ourselves to being great trial lawyers and trying to become better trial lawyers, clients often win the cases. I mean the jury's going to fall in love with the client. And this guy was just what a gym. He was an Air Force veteran who while waiting for top security clearance, volunteered with the Marines to go kick down doors in Fallujah. Got shot, went back to work like a week later and he was like this mountaineering awesome guy. He would race sailboats like Thomas Crown, these little tiny sailboats and like tip them sideways. And he would go to the base camp of Everest and just like this complete mountaineering adventure seeker who just had two small children his whole life was ahead of him.
Kurt Zaner (17m 27s):
He was killing it in oil and gas. And then this thing happened and just takes his entire life away and his career, teaching his kids all of his hobbies and these adventures you wanna take them on to not being able to have any more children and his wife looking at him as more of another child she had to take care of as opposed to a husband. So all sorts of wonderful tragic damage stories to weave in there. He had a life care plan of a couple million dollars, maybe three, $4 million. But the case was really hard because who knows why this exploded. And that was the real hard thing to prove here tanks aren't supposed to explode on an oil and gas site. And so we had to bring in and I'd never done an oil and gas explosion before.
Kurt Zaner (18m 9s):
I figured I could figure it out with the right experts. And so we brought in chemists and petroleum engineers and we just dug in and for a year and a half we investigated this thing looking through the public investigations and we figured out what happened and we were able to put together a theory that made a lot of sense.
Ben Gideon (18m 26s):
That's incredible. What did happen? I mean we, we don't need to get into the deep science And, I am curious about it.
Kurt Zaner (18m 32s):
And this was a good challenge for the jury 'cause I was like are they ever going to digest and understand what really happened. So, you gotta simplify it, right? For every these all these cases, And I said look these tanks were delivered in poor condition. They're supposed to be vapor tight, there should be no holes in them. They should not let air in or let air out. And the danger if air is let into these things is it can create a combustible atmosphere inside. It can cause an explosion. And so we stripped it down to that and we showed that these tanks were delivered with holes in them. They had tiny little pinholes in them, they had little holes the size of quarters in them. They had a pipe connected to the top that had a big hole in it that shouldn't be on there.
Kurt Zaner (19m 12s):
And that allowed air in. And as their corporate representative said, holes in tanks can lead to combustion. And so that was focusing it on how poorly these tanks were maintained. How they didn't in between jobs, these tanks go from one job to the next job, but in between that company has to inspect it and make sure there's no holes to air would lead to explosion. And so we just dive dove into their terrible record keeping systems on all the tests they're supposed to run in these tanks. In between each job they're supposed to do these pressure tests where they put a compressor on it and fill it up. They didn't do that. They're supposed to do liner tests where they look inside.
Kurt Zaner (19m 54s):
They didn't do that. They're supposed to do water tests where they fill it up with water 'cause that would show if there's any holes in there 'cause water would leak out. They said they did that but they had no records of it. So, it was just focusing on the bad behavior, bad behavior, bad behavior and then tying the causation. But we knew we had to focus on the bad behavior. They would understand that and not gloss over a causation but not focus on it. That was their defense was causation.
Ben Gideon (20m 21s):
Well I mean you explained it really well so even I was able to understand that. So you'd mentioned that when you became a lawyer you'd gone forward, you've quit, you've gone back before finding your place, doing plaintiff's trial work. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that and why is it that you found a home doing plaintiff's trial work?
Kurt Zaner (20m 38s):
Yeah, I graduated law school in oh six And I. I was really fortunate enough and very blessed to get a job as a federal clerk in the southern district of Florida. And I always wanted to be a trial lawyer. So I just wanted to take some stops along the way. And what I really had hoped to do was to be a federal clerk and then somehow get to become a federal prosecutor. It's kinda like dream number one. And then in the, I always wanna become a plaintiff's trial lawyer figure that was down the road. So I knew the clerkship. And I mean clerkship's great but it's really hard, right? Just transitioning from law school to being a practicing lawyer for me at least was really challenging. 'cause in law school, what do you do? Like three, four hours of work a day maybe. And it's very you. You can control your schedule, you can go study at the coffee shop, whatever you want to do.
Kurt Zaner (21m 21s):
Being chained to a desk was really hard for me for the cake job, right? Federal clerk, pretty easy job. But just being chained to a desk for eight, nine hours a day was really hard. And I got through it, it was great. Awesome judge. Then I worked for this firm in Miami doing class action, commercial litigation, a little bit of Pi And I was just hard man. I was just like, after a year and a half I interviewed for an a USA job Federal prosecutor job. Didn't get it. I wasn't experienced enough. And I just quit. I was like, I don't know if I want to be a lawyer. This is just not fun. I mean it was like, I remember thinking like where's the adventure in this? That always drove me as an individual. Like adventure, Indiana Jones, William Wall, all these movie heroes of like doing these things.
Kurt Zaner (22m 4s):
And I was just, I feel like I like Oedipus So, I like gouge my eyes out for different reasons than Oedipus. I walked away for like 10 months. And I was like, I, I'm just gonna go travel. And then I went to South America, bought a one way ticket. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go to Colorado And. I'm gonna try and become a trial lawyer. I really just need to go try cases. That's what's gonna, I think fuel this desire and mitigate the hard parts of the job. And so I got a job as criminal defense lawyer, which was great. Tried a bunch of cases and then quit that job for a year and took another year off again. It was just hard man and criminal defense was particularly difficult. Not because you're grinding in front of a desk but because people are going to prison And if you care, which you need the care gene to be a great trial lawyer, it's really hard man.
Kurt Zaner (22m 50s):
A lot of the people are guilty and they deserve a defense and that's great. I was just like, I don't know if I can spend my life doing that. The victims, they were the people that were hurting other people. Man, So, I couldn't just philosophically get behind it. I mean I knew they deserved a defense. I just didn't wanna be the guy to be doing it. I mean I was getting guys offered DUIs, And I was like, what if they against someone in my family? So, and it's very righteous work. You gotta hold those prosecutors accountable. I'm not dogging criminal law defense in any way. It's maybe the highest calling 'cause you're protecting the state and everyone's rights and some people are innocent. But I was just like, I need to step back. So I took another year off.
Ben Gideon (23m 27s):
We'd like to thank the sponsors of the Elawvate podcast, steno National Court Reporting Service that allows trial lawyers to defer the costs of court reporting until the end of the case. Take a look steno.com and buy law pods. Law Pods is the podcast production company that we use to produce the show that produces podcasts for lawyers all over the country. They have an expertise in podcasting and the law. Check them out at lawpods.com. I mean this must have been obviously pre-children and you have the luxury of being able to go find yourself and do some travel.
Ben Gideon (24m 11s):
But I very supportive of that. Done some traveling myself and my, one of my sons just did a gap year, which was really huge for him. But something about getting out there on the road and going to see other places, it forces you to look inward I think more than outward. And you need to do that to do this work ultimately. Right.
Kurt Zaner (24m 31s):
I couldn't agree more after the criminal defense job. I, since I keep mentioning Braveheart, I'll just give this one anecdote. So I went to Scotland on a pilgrimage, And I kind of retraced wind wall to steps on my own like where he met his wife in Lan Ark and the battlefields. And I'd like listen to the soundtrack and like walk barefoot in the ground and journal. I'm like what do I want out of life? What do I need? And it was like this cathartic journey of mine. And I was like, alright, I think I'm gonna give it one more shot and if I can do what I, I'll give up on the federal prosecutor thing. You know I had done some interviews and just never worked out but I'm gonna go help people man. I'm gonna go hold corporations accountable. I'm gonna go make society safer.
Kurt Zaner (25m 12s):
I'm gonna go tilt it windmills and try and slay dragons. And that was the final like motivation I needed and I was like, I'm just gonna go apply at a PI firm and then see where it goes. And I did that. I'm a Florida Gator, I hounded these Florida Gator grads out here in Colorado and they finally gave me a job. I worked there for three months and I'm like, I don't think I wanna work for anybody ever again. So I quit of course after three months that's pattern developing and I'm like, I'm starting Zaner Law. And I started my own firm. One of the guys was at that firm, ended up joining me Mark Hardin about a year later and then we were off to the races.
Ben Gideon (25m 53s):
And when did you start your own firm?
Kurt Zaner (25m 54s):
2012.
Ben Gideon (25m 56s):
And how has it gone?
Kurt Zaner (25m 57s):
It's been great man. It's been great. I mean the beginning we're doing some criminal law 'cause we had to bring, you know, we had no cases he had to bring some money in the door. We were able to phase out of that probably within about nine months, bringing in some PI cases. My law partner was very well connected in the community and had been doing PI so he was great those first five years, getting all those resources in and then like in any firm that starts, you know we got a bunch of dog shit cases and we took him to trial and we started polishing 'em and winning. And so to get success we ended up getting on the news a few times and then get a big verdict and then another big verdict and like it all just kind of spiraled on top of each other. And it was really rewarding those early years 'cause there's nothing more exciting than building something.
Kurt Zaner (26m 40s):
My law partner had won new trial lawyer of the year in Colorado then I won it after that. And we just had these, these great results and these cases that no one else wanted. We believed in them and we were able to like turn them into these really these cases when after the verdict comes and everyone's like, oh you know, I wish I had that case. Money in town passed on that case twice.
Ben Gideon (27m 2s):
Tell us about some of those early cases and the ones that were most impactful.
Kurt Zaner (27m 6s):
Yeah, so we had this case and there was this Iraqi family that had literally fled from Saddam in in the middle of the night. And they had six or seven children. One of the kids was 25 and his name was Abdul Ghar Ello, wonderful young man whom I never got a chance to meet 'cause he was speeding on his motorcycle. He was going 88 miles per hour on a city road on a 40 mile per hour speed limit. And he's going down and this guy turns left in front of him, huge collision, all caught on tape. My guy collides into the back passenger seat behind the driver into that window. His head crashes in, helmet is deposited and he lay falls back and he passes away and the driver of the car that turned left in front of him keeps on driving and he parks the car about three blocks away.
Kurt Zaner (27m 60s):
And he looks at his friend who was sitting in the backseat who my guy's head crashed into was bleeding. He looked at him, he looked at his buddy in the front seat and he ran, he left behind seven beer bottles, little bottle of vodka, some marijuana. He hid for three days watching news reports about him until he finally turned himself into police knowing there was no blood alcohol content they could get, he was never charged with causing the crash because my guy was going 88 miles per hour and he was able to go on with his life and my family lost their son and they was an amazing family. They brought me in as one of their own and they said we don't want you to ask for any money.
Kurt Zaner (28m 40s):
In this case they were devout Muslims and they said Ghar is looking down on us from above and we don't want him to think we're putting a value on his life. And so I wasn't allowed to ask for any money, which was fine. And we prepped during Ramadan when it was their fasting sunrise to sunset and they're feeding me and my law partner these great meals, I mean just wonderful people. And this is during the time of isis there was a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment. So we had all these different issues. My clients are wearing hijabs into the courtroom and it was just like this epic battle. And I. Remember watching Game of Thrones during this time. Are you a being Game of Thrones fan? Ben? I am, yeah. So, you appreciate this. So every morning I would watch the speech that the between Ion and the Viper of Dorn Prince Obern, before he does, he goes in the trial by combat forum him and anywhere he announces to ion, I will be your champion.
Kurt Zaner (29m 33s):
Because Tyrion can't fight for himself. Tyrion's facing, you know, the mountain. And he needs someone who has the right skills and the courage to take something on that no one else can. I felt like I was their champion. And I would watch it every morning for motivation. This like beautiful speech. It's like five minutes long go watch it's season three. And it's about someone help being someone else's champion fighting for them.
Ben Gideon (29m 57s):
You may see the slogan we have for my law firm.
Kurt Zaner (30m 1s):
Oh, I love it.
Ben Gideon (30m 3s):
It may have come from the same concept
Kurt Zaner (30m 7s):
I have because of this my fascination. I started doing karate with my kids Ben and now I've learned how to do the spear, the weapon 'cause I was inspired by Prince Obran, And. I got to the point now where I'm literally working on recreating that fight scene that follows and I'm gonna do that in a tournament. Oh that's cool. So amazing. So we will win the case. We were able to show that this kid was, he was intoxicated despite no evidence, no direct evidence of it.
Ben Gideon (30m 34s):
Did they move to keep that out because did you need to show there was some connection between the intoxication and the cause?
Kurt Zaner (30m 41s):
We did not that great jury instruction, circumstantial evidence is treated the same as direct evidence. And we had loads of that. And so this was a slog the jury ended up giving and in Colorado a 50 50 state. So if you get 50% fault in your guy, it's over and you can tell them that, which is nice. And so jury gave us 45% blame to my client, 55% to theirs. And so we won this two and a half million dollars verdict, which was a huge deal for us at the time. Front page, Denver post holding drunk drivers, accountable, hitting run drunk drivers. The worst kind and the side story of this beautiful family. They never took his room away in their house.
Kurt Zaner (31m 21s):
They just, what they did is they kept candles lit at all times. And the Quran playing on a loop. And my faith is a huge part of my journey. I'm a Christian, my kids go to Christian school. I drive all of my strength and hope from scripture. And so being able to approach that and their faith in this beautiful way and able to connect that way, it was just a, a completely transformational case for me. The Muslim faith, Christian faith, you know, we share a lot of the same things and we really respect it. It was just a, I guess a transformative case for us.
Ben Gideon (31m 52s):
It's such a fascinating test case because those issues are so evident in a way that, I mean they're subtle in many cases with the potential of the bad conduct. What Mark Mande would say, AI can't get over it issue in your case you have a good one and a bad one. And the potential for bias, it really is a fascinating case. And how you would, I mean that's almost, if you were gonna design a test case for mock trial for trial lawyers, that would be the case you'd have, right? I mean 88 miles an hour is in a 40 is so outrageously excessive and fast. And how could you ever overcome that?
Ben Gideon (32m 34s):
But on the other hand, you've got the drunk driver and the really terrible conduct there. How did you frame that in a way that authentically recognized the problems you had with your own case and the conduct of your own client, but allowed the jury to find a way to overcome that? Obviously you also have the burden of proof. So it'd be one thing if you were defending that, but you have to win it and motivate them to, to help your clients. So how did you do that?
Kurt Zaner (33m 2s):
Yeah, I mean similar to the 30 million fracking, right? It's like I don't focus so much on causation, it's more about negligence and bad behavior. And I keep hammering that And I think we, we created this negligence pie, right? If you take all the negligence, it's a big pie you eat, it's all the negligence in this case who's got more negligence? Our guy was going 88 miles per hour. That's bad. He should be dinged. But he did try and take evasive action when he saw the Jeep. And here's the 10 things the Jeep did wrong, which takes up 85% of the negligence pie. He didn't come to a full stop before turning left. He decided to turn left over double yellow lines and he was engaged in a moving party where he had all these alcohol and drugs.
Kurt Zaner (33m 44s):
He didn't stop afterwards. He had his buddy looking right when he was supposed to be looking left but his buddy was drinking. So we lay out all the things that the defendant did wrong and contrasted with the one or two things that our guy did wrong. And then the emotion and the disgust that we've built up over the case, the disgust against the defendant and the sympathy and the emotion for the plaintiff. I think that really drives where the numbers go. It's like and the fracking explosion case, their big defense was that that big pipe I talked about, they're like okay, if that was the cause and it wasn't, why didn't they catch it? They're operating this fracking site, there's a big pipe on the tank, they're working right next to the pipe, why didn't they just plug the pipe and you know you gotta own it.
Kurt Zaner (34m 31s):
Give us some accountability for that. Give us 10% that wasn't their only job and look at all the things the tank company did wrong. And it's just creating that tipping of the scales fueled by sympathy for plaintiff disgusted it defendant in the fracking case, we didn't get a hundred percent negligence, they gave us 80% on the bad guys, 15% on our guy's employer for not catching the pipe and 5% on a non-party. That's too granular to get into. We kind of use the same negligence pie kind of philosophy and just focus on negligence.
Ben Gideon (35m 3s):
Yeah, that's really smart. I think a lot of times trial lawyers tie themselves into knots trying to prove that their own client had zero negligence, zero fault. Where if you get a good number, even if it's discounted, you can get to the same place with 80% of a better number than a hundred percent of a worse number. So because the apportionment of fault shouldn't change the value of the case. If you have a deserving client, you should still start with a really high number, right? But if you don't acknowledge some fault for it, they might ding you on the number as well. Right?
Kurt Zaner (35m 39s):
Right.
Ben Gideon (35m 40s):
Because they think you're, you're overreaching relative to what you deserve. So you're getting dinged on the number and getting dinged on the apportionment. So why not just own some of it and then push for the better number. But I feel like people tie themselves into knots just trying to say we did nothing wrong. Which in a way is just replicating the thing the defense always does, which is generally a problem for them, which is they can't acknowledge doing anything wrong even if it's bashing you over the head and obvious to everybody. So going forward from there, I mean that must have been a big shot in the arm for your firm and especially you're now getting recognition in the field of drunk driving cases, which tends to be a fairly fertile ground for plaintiff's work.
Ben Gideon (36m 26s):
If you wanna get cases, ones that involve drunk driving tend to be a pretty good bet in our business. Yeah so moving forward from there, take us forward in time.
Kurt Zaner (36m 38s):
That was a huge momentum creator. you know we had these damage caps in Colorado so the financial reward was minimal 'cause everything got kicked and cut. But it was just great momentum. So the next big one, and this was kinda like the next, like next stratosphere kind of deal, there was this guy who was a flooring installer, Brian Warberg and he's at a new house and there you know, you put in the walls and this and that. He's putting the floors in and he's installing the floors and when you get power for your machines at a new house, there's no power inside, right? They just have like what's called a a temporary pedestal outside. It's a breaker box like you have in your house but much smaller. And Brian goes to plug in his equipment into it and boom explosion, you know all these explosion cases they all cut onto to each other but we're working backwards in time now.
Kurt Zaner (37m 23s):
And his burn injury, electrocution injury. He comes down with complex regional pain syndrome, Crips, CRPS. I never had one of those cases, never had an electrocution case again. Figure it out, right? We're good lawyers. Here's the problem though. The temporary pedestal or the box where the power was connected that exploded. The defendant had destroyed that and this case came to us very good trial lawyer in Boulder, Colorado had it for two years and 60 days before the statute ran. He is like, we're not gonna file a lawsuit for you Brian, so go find somebody else. We don't. You gotta put your own money in the game. Like if you wanna do it, Brian's like I don't have any money whatcha talking about.
Kurt Zaner (38m 3s):
So the case comes to us, I fall in love with the client And. I say let's take a flyer on it. I'm sure spoliation law is great in Colorado. Ex spoliation law is okay in Colorado. It's not great but it is now because of our case. It was another epic journey. We have this every time we get a good trial result I create a little like trial memento with the verdict form and this one we used the book of Eli maybe in the movie the book Eli with Denzel Washington
Ben Gideon (38m 28s):
Probably, but I don't remember it.
Kurt Zaner (38m 29s):
Like post-apocalyptic.
Ben Gideon (38m 31s):
Oh yeah, yeah I think I did see that.
Kurt Zaner (38m 33s):
Got the bible in his head and he's got a like journey again speaks to my faith and that and that was like the motivation for this case. 'cause Eli goes on this like perilous journey fraught with danger and tries to help his friend out and do good things along the way. So we have like this movie quote like there's a prayer at the end and it's like thank you Lord for all the good that I did. I'm sorry for the bad. Hopefully I helped my friend and that's what this case was like. It was so challenging. We had to win the spoliation motion and figure out a way to show that they shouldn't have destroyed the box. And this kind of set the standard for how to do things in the rest of my cases. I take a lot of depositions because I find the key kinda touching what you talked about a minute ago.
Kurt Zaner (39m 12s):
Ben its credibility, And. I wanna show that we have to have all the credibility in the world and that's why we have to own our own faults. But the defendants, you depose enough of them and employees and this and all their stories don't seem to line up and they start to have inconsistencies and So, I were able to paint a picture in this case that they created what we called a moving fiction of when they destroyed the box. They kept telling different people different stories at different times about when and how and why they destroyed the box. And so the court was like, it doesn't matter when they destroyed it, they're lying to the court, they're lying to us and they can't benefit from destroying the box and precluding us from the evidence and then lying about when they destroyed it.
Kurt Zaner (39m 55s):
So we can't get ex spoliation sanction, right? Because the idea behind spoliation is did they destroy it when litigation was reasonably foreseeable? And if they don't let us even know when that was, they shouldn't benefit. And the court's like you're absolutely right. You get an IR rebuttable presumption IR rebuttable of causation and liability, meaning jury must find 1% fault in causation on the defendant. They still had all their comparative fault defenses. Brian shouldn't have been in there messing with the box. He wasn't trained right by his employer, but jury must find 1% on behalf of the plaintiff. Jury found a hundred percent on behalf of the plaintiff. They gave Brian who was a father of three young boys, I didn't have three boys at that time.
Kurt Zaner (40m 36s):
$16 million and he had, I don't know, about a hundred thousand dollars in medical bills up to that point So. it was a huge verdict. They appeal it to the court of appeals, I go and argue it, which was awesome. I'd argued the drunk driving one as well, the court of appeals and we got a 3.0 published decision, 62 pages, which is now the law of the land in Colorado ex spoliation, which is great. They try to take it to the Supreme Court and then pay us about 16 million bucks right before. So huge win change the law in Colorado in spoliation. Brian CRPS is just a nasty disease where cold weather's really bad for you 'cause your autoimmune system is triggered by heat and colds.
Kurt Zaner (41m 16s):
He was able to move to Texas and get some treatment down there and he's just doing a whole lot better. And, but we did this for the first time, which I think is probably fun for the listeners to hear 'cause it helped my practice out immensely is this idea of how to use depo clips at trial in the fracking trial. I cut, you know, take all these depos 1200 depo clips of question answers and then I create my cross examinations with all of these different depo clips so that with enough latitude to go have fun and go off script of course. But each witness, I've got a hundred clips ready to play the minute they veer from their testimony and you don't know when you're gonna use them. But when you do it is the most powerful thing in trial.
Kurt Zaner (41m 59s):
I mean I think in the last trial, these 1200 clips, I played maybe 25 of them And. I didn't play any until day three. When you set this up in a way the judge allows you to do it and they can't object and you just say, well let's play clip 47. And then it shows them saying the exact opposite of what they just said. You have complete control of that courtroom and the witness. Now, once you do it three or four times, I think you have a clip for every question. So now you can ask 'em questions that you don't have clips for and they're gonna agree 'cause they're like, I don't wanna see my face up there again. So the depo thing is critical. I think tons of work, but the payoff is huge.
Ben Gideon (42m 33s):
I agree with that a hundred percent. We videotape every deposition, And, I, impeach witnesses at trial, always using their video deposition. We don't actually make the clips in advance, although it's, it can be a good idea to refine the clip and make sure it's perfect, you know, and cut. Right With our trial presentation software, we can pull that up. All I need to do is call out the page and line number and the paralegal can pull up the clip. We will run through that the night before and I'll look at every clip because And I make a check as to whether that clip is playable or not. 'cause sometimes the clip really doesn't look good or it stops midstream or something. you know, it's really, like you said, once you've impeached somebody a couple times with the video clips, you've got them, they are your witness.
Ben Gideon (43m 19s):
You've got a hundred percent control because they're so worried that you have whatever they're gonna say on next clip, they, they'll disagree with everything from that point forward.
Kurt Zaner (43m 28s):
Do you ever get pushback from the judges on that? Do you ever get pushback from playing the video clip or,
Ben Gideon (43m 32s):
I mean, we did. So I've been doing this for, I don't know, 15 years. I was an early adopter video depositions before anybody was doing it around here. And you always get that from people that aren't accustomed to seeing it. Like the old judges who haven't seen video before. I think now we're, we're getting very little pushback because it's more standard. Where it becomes trickier is if you're not using it for impeachment, but you're just playing a clip without impeaching, which you can do if they're a party. But then there's a debate about who's a party and who isn't a party and that kind of thing. So I got one final area of questioning. I saw you wrote it an article or presentation on lessons learned from Cicero.
Ben Gideon (44m 15s):
I'm curious about that because I've always thought very highly of Cicero, read some of his works and biography and really was a, a very impressive lawyer in his time and did things that are hard to even fathom today. But so what lessons did you draw from and are you imparting from Cicero that we can all benefit from?
Kurt Zaner (44m 39s):
I teach, I've done a few CLEs on this openings according to Cicero. And for the listeners who don't know, Cicero was arguably, I mean, how do you even measure this? But one of the greatest trial lawyers of all time, you know, he's out in the Roman forum and in an area where a time when this is right before zero BC we're talking like 40 BC and there's no movie theaters. you know, the entertainment of the day is going to the Roman forum, the center of the city and watching public trials. And Cicero was this, back then you had Patricias in upper class and the plebeians the lower class and he was kinda like right in the middle, somewhat upper, but not a true Patricia. He was always kinda looked down upon by the Patricias.
Kurt Zaner (45m 19s):
And here was a guy who became a trial lawyer and then worked his way up to really like what we consider the president of the Roman Republic. He was one of the two councils. And he did this by being an amazing trial lawyer and winning over, winning over the crowd. They saying, gladiator, win the crowd and you'll win your freedom. I'll win the crowd. I'll give him something they've never seen before. And so Cicero does this and he does these great trials and open air and he writes books on it. He's a philosopher. He steals unabashedly and admittedly a lot of his philosophy from the Greeks. And then he puts his own spin on it. And he has these books on oratory where you can really dive in to what he thinks makes a good orator and how to do a successful presentation.
Kurt Zaner (46m 3s):
How to move people's hearts and their minds. And so one of the big takeaways, and I'll get to the practical ones that I found very comforting, which you've probably probably read about in some of his books, is like he would get terribly nervous before trials. I mean, sometimes he would throw up, sometimes he would perform badly. And I'm a guy that gets terribly nervous and I'm sure a lot of listeners do. And it's like, it was just very comforting to hear that doesn't need to be an impediment and that you can harness that energy. And he's like one of his writing, he's like, of course you're gonna get nervous. Everyone's hanging on your every word. You have the power to rise men's hearts to anger and soothe them, to peace and to passion.
Kurt Zaner (46m 45s):
Of course you're gonna get nervous. And that just gave me a lot of confidence moving forward that it was okay to have that anxiety and those emotions. He also says, look, you can learn a lot of this stuff. You need to have some flicker of talent. But there was this great orator named Damani who had a terrible speech impediment, but he would practice. And so the way he would practice, he would put marbles in his mouth and then practice giving speeches that way. And he was able to overcome that impediment. And so a lot of like inspirational hope stuff from here. Cicero also had a great way of how to memorize things. you know, not word for word, but how to construct a speech and be able to walk through it in your mind as, as you give it so you don't lose certain parts.
Kurt Zaner (47m 32s):
I think it's critical as trial lawyers that we don't read our notes. you know, you can have notes but don't read them. And so there's a great book called Moonwalking with Einstein, which is all about how to memorize speeches according to Cicero's methods. But then Cicero, when he goes into the construct of a speech, I try and follow this in, in a lot of these, it's like, you know, you wanna start with some dividends, be a human when you start, you know, if you look like you're a speech giver, no one's gonna trust you. Go up there and be a human. So like an opening I don't just stand up and give my power statement. I just talk to them for a second, just let them see me for who I am. And then he is like, then you need to have a good knowledge of things. You need to know your material really well.
Kurt Zaner (48m 12s):
You need to have a good memory. You need to have sound, proper arrangement of the speech. You need to have a little bit of wit and you can have wit by being a civilized person and being educated. You need to mix in some humors within all of these things to make it a connected speech where it doesn't look like a planned speech, even though it's very planned. And to what we talked earlier, you talked about acknowledging the bad parts of a case, acknowledging our weaknesses so that you have more credibility when you talk about your strengths. So the book that I have written some articles on is called On the Orator. I kind of deconstruct that for openings and lays out how to give these speeches, how to organize them.
Kurt Zaner (48m 56s):
So it's like have the confidence, how to organize it and then how to really deliver it. Be'cause the delivery at the end of the day can be more important than the actual words. And so how to have that, that, that humility while having the confidence and having a little fun with it all at the same time.
Ben Gideon (49m 14s):
Well, there's a lot there. So valuable and I've gotta go back and read some of these other books. I feel like I at some point picked up Moonwalking with Einstein, but I don't recall if I ever got into it or read it through. So, boy, this is really great, lot of inspiration there as well. I don't know if anybody who's listened to my episode will know that I've also struggled with anxiety. And you know, what you realize is that I was just, as I'm saying, I think before we went on the air, maybe while we were here, that I flew in from Philadelphia yesterday and we did a trial deposition and a very important witness and a big case. And I was there with my new paralegal who just started three weeks ago.
Ben Gideon (49m 54s):
And so she has the hard job of having to make sure all the visuals get up on the screen. And I think she was very nervous about it. And she looked over at me after we were done and said, do you ever get nervous at all? And I was thinking to myself, yeah, I was incredibly anxious about this deposition, but you can't tell. But inside you are and I think that's a common theme. I mean, even the great orators like Sister Row, Winston Churchill famously flubbed one speech and then refused to ever give a speech by memory ever again. Had to write, write things down because he was so nervous that he might mess it up. So, I, think it's a universal trait.
Ben Gideon (50m 34s):
So Kurt we really appreciate you doing this morning. Getting up early I know you, you're up early anyway, but spending your morning with us, there's a lot of great takeaways from this episode. I think people obtain a lot of value from listening to you and congratulations on all your incredible success as a trial lawyer. Look forward to seeing more. So folks need a lawyer in Colorado or in the Western United States and are looking to find you. How do they locate you?
Kurt Zaner (51m 2s):
So they can go to my website, www.zanerhardinlaw.com or you can type in your story. We'll be told.com. That's from the original firm. You can call my cell right here. It is 352-262-1460. Text me, call me or email me at kz@zanerhardenlaw.com. I'm up early, I'm cold plunging. Use your own 5:45 in the morning doing my morning prayers and getting after the day. So, I'd love to meet some new folks.
Ben Gideon (51m 42s):
Well, that's great. Well, thanks so much Kurt.
Kurt Zaner (51m 44s):
Ben. Thanks for having me, man. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it.
Narrator (51m 48s):
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